McGuinness shocked by McCabe 'rumours' and believes he is an 'honourable' man
A Fianna Fáil TD has said he was shocked to have "rumours" and "tittle tattle" about Garda whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe confirmed by the then Garda commissioner, writes Gerard Cunningham.
John McGuinness TD told the Charleton Tribunal that then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan confirmed these rumours in a meeting in a hotel car park in January 2014.
Mr Callinan accepts that the meeting took place but denies making comments attributed to him.
The tribunal is looking at allegations that senior gardaí were smearing Sgt McCabe to politicians, journalists and others. The tribunal has heard previously that the DPP directed no prosecution after an historic allegation was made against Sgt McCabe in 2007, saying that the Garda investigation found no evidence that a crime had been committed.
Micheál P O'Higgins SC, on behalf of An Garda Síochána and Martin Callinan, spent the morning cross-examining the TD about what he was told at the meeting, which took place in the carpark of the Bewley's hotel at Newlands Cross, Dublin, on January 24, 2014.
Mr McGuinness, a former chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, said Mr Callinan told him not to trust Sgt McCabe, and that McCabe was being investigated over child sex abuse allegations.
"I was deeply concerned over what was said to me by the commissioner. It put me in a position where I believed I could be completely wrong about this and about Maurice McCabe," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness said he took what he was told in the carpark meeting much more seriously than a comment made the day before after a meeting of the Oireachtas public accounts committee when he believed Mr Callinan described Sgt McCabe as "a kiddie fiddler".
The TD said the then commissioner had made this earlier remark about the whistleblower after the PAC meeting.
"This was a meeting arranged by the commissioner. Things can be said in the heat of the moment. Here was a commissioner, making a decision away from that meeting, requesting a meeting with me. That is entirely different," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness previously told the tribunal that there were rumours circulating in Leinster House about Sgt McCabe.
"What was new was that it was being suggested to me was that there was a file, a live file, and that was ongoing," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness said the allegation that the abuse involved family members was also new information to him.
"It was no longer a rumour, it was not tittle tattle, it was something that was being presented as fact. That was quite different," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness said that after the car park meeting he was in a "fearful" state.
"When he laid this information before me I was quite shocked and I wasn't in a position to take on the commissioner, as it were, by questioning his authority. He gave me that information as if he knew for a fact that that was the position. That's what caused me the worry and the fear," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness denied that he had given contradictory accounts of the car park meeting in media interviews afterwards. He said that he didn't recall speaking to Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin about the meeting until after he saw a statement which Mr Martin made to the tribunal.
Mr McGuinness said he approached Mr Martin "to thank him for his bravery in supporting Sgt Maurice McCabe"after he spoke about the whistleblower in the Dáil in February 2014. He added that at this time he also told him about the car park meeting with Mr Callinan.
Mr McGuinness said that he had spoken to Sgt McCabe about the allegations, and that the sergeant had assured him they were false.
"I find the whole thing absolutely disgusting that these rumours were circulating in Leinster House without any foundation whatsoever," Mr McGuinness said.
An honourable individual
The Dáil deputy said he believed that Sgt McCabe "was an honourable individual who was dealt with improperly by the State."
He said he "felt embarrassed and upset to have to ask Sgt McCabe about his family affairs”.
Mr McGuinness said that he had told Richard Crowley in an interview on RTÉ's This Week programme that he had no detailed notes or a transcript of the carpark meeting, because he had only made "short snappy notes".
Mr McGuinness said the carpark meeting was "trying to discredit Maurice McCabe" and he was "not going to allow myself to be used by Commissioner Callinan to spread the type of rumour and information that I was given”.
He said that it was "a break" that Leo Varadkar had called Sgt McCabe "distinguished not disgusting" after the whistleblower was criticised by the Garda Commissioner for giving penalty point files to the Public Accounts Committee. Mr McGuinness revealed he did not think that Mr Varadkar had "stolen a march" when he said this.
Mr McGuinness said he was "deeply disturbed" after the carpark meeting. "It took me that day and two days more running these matters through my head to decide that Maurice McCabe was an honourable man whose family had been devastated by the accusations made against him and deserved to be defended," he said.
Mr Guinness was continuing his evidence to the Disclosures Tribunal today (Tuesday).
Yesterday at the tribunal, it was stated that former Garda press officer Superintendent David Taylor heard former commissioner Martin Callinan describe whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe as "a kiddie fiddler" in the aftermath of a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in January 2014.
Giving evidence on Monday, Mr McGuinness said that after the Oireachtas committee hearings about penalty point abuses, as he was leaving the committee room, Mr Callinan told him a story about an incident between former garda and whistleblower, John Wilson, and a horseback rider on Grafton Street.
Mr Callinan said Mr Wilson "pulled the knacker off the horse" then rode the horse himself to a garda barracks, Mr McGuinness said.
F**king headbangers
Mr McGuinness said the commissioner, who denies the TD's account of events, continued by saying: "And the other fella fiddles with kids. They’re the kinds of f**king headbangers I’m dealing with." Mr McGuinness said that he believed that the latter comment referred to Sgt McCabe.
Michael L O'Higgins, representing Supt Taylor, told the tribunal his client, who was standing nearby at the time, also recalled Mr Callinan making the 'kiddie fiddler' remark.
Mr McGuinness said that he later met with Supt Taylor and his wife Michelle in the Skylon Hotel in January 2017, when the superintendent was suspended from duty. Mr McGuinness said he found the superintendent quite distressed over his treatment and worried for his family.
In a statement to the tribunal, Supt Taylor said he was "directed to draw journalists' attention to the complaint of sexual assault made against Sgt McCabe, and that this was the root cause of his agenda, revenge against the Gardaí".
Supt Taylor said that the instructions he received from Commissioner Callinan were "always verbal".
'Devastated'
"When I met Supt Taylor he presented as a man completely devastated by the way he was being treated," Mr McGuinness said.
Mr McGuinness said that the treatment of Supt Taylor "had a similar ring to it to the way Sgt McCabe had been treated, and others".
Mark Harty SC, on behalf of former garda John Wilson, said that the incident with a horse happened in 1983 shortly after Grafton Street was pedestrianised, and he took the animal into custody because it was being mistreated.
Mr Callinan and Garda Wilson were based in the same station at the time, which was how the commissioner knew about the incident.
Mr Harty said his client had acted properly on the occasion, when he saw an animal mistreated.
"I never questioned John Wilson, I considered him to be an honourable individual," Mr McGuinness said.
Micheál P O'Higgins, acting for An Garda Siochána and Mr Callinan, said that the former commissioner had made it clear that he "fundamentally disagreed" with how Sgt McCabe disclosed individuals' personal and confidential data to the Public Accounts Committee.
Mr O'Higgins said that, as a politician, Mr McGuinness would be aware that criticising Sgt McCabe was not a popular thing to do.
Mr McGuinness said that the issue for the Oireachtas committee was not popularity, but whether they could legally accept documents from Sgt McCabe.
"We took our separate legal advice, and we were led by that legal advice," Mr McGuinness said. As a result, information in the documents was redacted, and Sgt McCabe gave his evidence in private.
Mr McGuinness said that Sgt McCabe had answered questions from every member of the committee, and had not named any persons in his answers.
He is continuing his evidence this afternoon.